We recently posted the first part of our lengthy discussion with Junction Point's Warren Spector, where he talks about the design approach for his upcoming Epic Mickey (launching exclusively on Wii on Nov. 30). Now we're happy to present you with Part 2, in which Spector talks about the possibility of using Move or Kinect for the game, why the game appeals to both children and adults, and he proclaims his love of the 3DS. Read on...
IG: Were there any benefits or limitations to the platform of choice?
WS: Well, it's the perfect platform for this game. I mean, there's no question in my mind about that. We started out as a multi-platform SKU, I thought that was pretty common knowledge. But as soon as you start thinking about drawing and erasing everything starts doing this (mimes painting) and so gesture controls are important.
And on top of that, one of my big goals for the project, in addition to making Mickey a video game hero, is to introduce the idea of choice and consequence to a new, much broader audience. Gamers get it, but I'm not sure normal people do. And so where do you go if you want to make a game for everyone? You go to the Wii.
And finally, do you really want to be the guy who tries to convince people who want to be Master Chief or a thug in Grand Theft Auto - do you want to say, 'you should be Mickey Mouse for a while' or do you want to go to guys who love Mario or Sonic? It kind of made sense on every level.
IG: The mechanic that makes the game so natural for the Wii, was it in the game when it was multiplatform?
WS: The literal brush wasn’t. Mickey’s ability to control paint was. I started trying to find the essence of the character from a conceptual standpoint, and then said, ‘what do we do with this guy to make him a video game hero?’ And I don’t mean to make this sound easy, because this was months of thinking and talking and debating, but it didn’t take really long to figure out that it would be cool to sort of of remind people that Mickey was a cartoon character, and impossible things can happen around him. ‘Hey wouldn’t it be cool if we gave him control of the stuff that he was made of’ ‘I’m the guy who makes games about choice and consequence, you can’t just have him paint stuff, what’s the opposite, so when an artist draws something and they don’t like it they erase it.’
That was kind of the train of thought that went from, ‘I’m Mickey Mouse’ to ‘I control paint’ and now ‘I control paint and thinner’. But it was actually, in the middle of the project, that my visual development director came to me and said, ‘it’s just goofy having Mickey hold his hands up and firing paint thinner out of them. It’d be so much cooler if you’d let me put a brush in his hand.’ And so, we’d already made the switch from multiplatform to Wii exclusive, but it was still Mickey with his hands, so the concept artists turned out several images of Mickey with a brush.
‘Oh yeah, I was wrong, go.’
IG: With the new interactivity from PlayStation Move and Microsoft Kinect, do you think that you can revisit Epic Mickey on those consoles?
WS: There’s no technical reason why we couldn’t, but no one has told me or even hinted that this game should be on 360 or PS3. That’s a decision that gets made way above me. But it’s interesting in that, now there are other options, but when we started, this was the only game in town. And to be clear, I have been a Nintendo junkie forever, and my favorite games on the planet are the Zelda games. The opportunity to make a game on a Nintendo platform that honors those games and those genres [is incredible].
IG: Have you thought of any ideas for Nintendo 3DS?
WS: Read my blog after E3. I said it there and I will say it again; I’ve seen it since at Gamescom. It is the coolest thing I have seen at E3 ever in any category. It’s unbelievable. It literally changed the way I think about the world. I’ve always been a believer that until we get rid of glasses, 3D is going to be dicey at best. And they got rid of the glasses. And the little genius thing of it is, there’s a little slider that adjusts the parallax, the distance between the layers basically. Which means that everybody can adjust the 3D so that it’s perfect for their eyes.
It’s phenomenal. It’s a magical little device. I can’t wait for bigger screens that use the parallax barrier technology. There’s a magic thing that happens. I’ve been reading all I can about the thing - don’t draw any conclusions - I will tell you that no one at Junction Point is working on 3DS stuff. Would I love to? Holy cow. Will I? Maybe. But it would be inaccurate to say anything else. There’s this one step that’s magical.
IG: Any possible DLC?
WS: No. What you see is what you get.
IG: Is there a 'Mickeypedia' planned for the game that will help players find out all the original sources?
WS: I thought about doing it. There are plenty of ways you’ll learn some things about the real inspirations and real Disney history. Characters that will tell you things. There are other strategies we have for revealing some of that stuff, but I really did make the decision early that I wanted players to discover things for themselves. So the Mickeypedia is probably going to be the Wikipedia. People are going to be doing a lot of YouTube watching and buying Disney collector sets and going to Disneyland with an eagle eye. I want them to discover it for themselves.
IG: Do you have some of the original shorts in the games as extras?
WS: No comment.
IG: Transmedia is starting to become the new buzz word, with extensions of game properties into other media like movies and television. Is Epic Mickey something that Disney is planning to expand into cartoons and the like?
WS: I can’t speak to anybody’s plans honestly, it’s a gamble. Let’s at least get the first game out here, see if maybe there’ll be other games. I will tell you personally, I have no interest in one-offs. I like creating things that have a life beyond me and beyond a single project. And certainly this has the potential; I mean there are infinite stories we can tell in the Wasteland. Mickey is obviously a character - how many other things are still relevant in any way that were created in 1928. I believe the answer is: none. There are plenty of stories to tell with Mickey.
Oswald, I think people are going to be really surprised, they’re going to love Oswald. I hope there’s Oswald stuff that happens. But right now, it’s a game. We’ve already talked about the graphic novel coming out, written by Peter David, who’s an Eisner award-winning unbelievable super genius, who’s been great to work with. He’s also written a series of digicomics that are coming out soon. And if you go down to the floor here at PAX, you can see there’s a Paintbrush Nunchuk cover, and the Collector’s Edition has a 5-inch limited edition Mickey vinyl figure. It’s starting to happen. If you ask what I want: I want a feature film, I want everything, I want it now. But I can’t speak for Disney’s plans.
IG: Where do you see this type of game going?
WS: Into every home in the United States. I don’t know that it needs any future outside of me and Junction Point. If you come to our offices, the words ‘Playstyle Matters’ are written in this big font. I thought there was going to be a revolution when I put those up. There’s a short version of the company mission statement on the website, and the long version that no one would let me print anywhere else.
I’m going to keep making games about choice and consequence where playstyle matters for the rest of my life and I am going to continue to confound marketing guys who insist that games have to fit into one nice little category until the day I die. Deus Ex was a combination of stealth, shooter and roleplaying; this is combination of platforming, action adventure, and roleplaying. Who knows what crazy genres I’m going to mix up next time? I intend to keep making games like this as long as people keep giving me money to make another.
IG: Have you seen specific playstyles in testing?
WS: We’re at the phase now where you get people off the street playing. If you sit three people down, one of them will paint everything they can see, one of them will erase everything they can see, and one of them will do whatever the heck they feel like doing right now. We’re absolutely seeing different playstyles. [In the training levels], there’s no particular or immediate reward for playing differently, but people just do it. Because different people find different things fun. People find different things funny. And so just giving them the choice, they naturally gravitate towards the things that they find fun and funny, even if you don’t offer a tangible reward as a developer. Players love to leave their mark on the world, they love to express themselves, and games typically don’t allow them to do that.
IG: Around a year ago, there was an article in the New Yorker about Epic Mickey. Did that article affect the creation of this game? Considering the demographic of gamers, is there any subtle adult humor in the game?
WS: I was tickled because it was the second time the New Yorker ever mentioned video games. I just thought it was cool. Did it affect anything? No. I don’t tend to be influenced by outside opinion. The fact that they recognized that we existed was pretty darn cool.
To answer your other question, there’s all sorts of stuff in here for kids and adults. One of my personal goals on this project is to get the idea of choice and consequence to a broader audience than ever before. The non-gamers, I think it’s going to be a revelation to them when that lightbulb goes off in their head. I think getting it out to a broader audience is huge, and I think this could be a great way to do it.
I was really inspired when I saw the movie Enchanted. It was loving parody; it was honoring Disney’s history, while self-consciously discussing that history. I was in the theatre with my wife, and I saw a family of four, and I was looking around going ‘I’ve been making games for 18 to 34 year old males for a long time. It would be really cool to make a game that an eight year old can play and dad can play after the kid goes to sleep and has a differently good time. And without giving away any of the gags, there’s going to be a lot of stuff that adults are going to get that the kids won’t, and there will be a lot of stuff that kids will have to do for their parents. I think we have something for everyone. Nothing would make me happier than to see a mom and a daughter, a father and a son, or any combination thereof, playing together.
IG: A number of developers are pursuing smaller projects in their free time, more downloadable games. Do you have anything in that vein planned?
WS: Honestly, no. Do I have interest and desire, oh my gosh yes. I would love to do small stuff. I started out when teams were 4 people and teams of 10 people were a big thing and it’d be nice to do something really small and short. I told the guys at Disney the day I met them, when they made the offer, that I don’t do budgets, I don’t do schedules, I make the games I want to make. I develop like that, you don’t want that, we should part ways now so we stay friends. And I told them if you look at the last six games I’ve done, they’ve all taken between 32 and 36 months, and if I tell you I’m going a make a game in less than that, then I’m probably lying to you. So, I would love to do something small and short and downloadable, but I have no idea how to do it. But right now, that’s another one where no one’s actually working on anything.
I’ve done so many games where you have heroes that look like the mighty Thor, and gun this, and sunglasses at night. Even as a gamer, I’m so tired. I want to do something that makes people smile. That’s charming. Like you listen to Pixar movies, and I look over at my wife and said ‘I want to do a game someday that deserves a soundtrack like that. With music like that.’ I could not be happier with the music in this game. People are going to cry.
IG: Thanks very much for your time.
